I had some friends of ours who are not christians recently attend 'sausage sizzle and concert' in a park near our house. They were disappointed to find out that this family event was not what they were expecting. The music were familiar songs with words changed to 'make them religious' and they got the feeling they were only there so the church people could hand out their 'propaganda' en masse. What discouraged our friends the most was the fact the there was no advertising that this was a church organised event, and seemed to them very sus' that somebody wouldn't advertise like that. This begs the following questions;

Why are some church groups afraid to put their name on a flyer?
Are they afraid that no one will show if people made an informed choice to attend? nice show of faith that.
Why do they feel they have to con, trick or deceive people to coming to an event?

In my opinion the local church should be a beacon of hope and light in a community, and shouldn't be ashamed to be known by the community.

Any thoughts?

Very interesting. If we have the answer to life, salvation from sin, eternal hope, joy, peace and all the rest, why would we want to keep it a secret? Is it ethically correct not to declare you are a church group and who you are affiliated with? And if God is with us why do we need to hide our identity?

But the question isn't what do we think - it doesn't matter what we think. It matters what the bible says and what Jesus reckons.

Mr or Ms Shack - didn't Jesus hide his identity?

He only let a select few know who he really was - and when disciples got the revelation, he would tell them to keep it to themselves? In fact he would heal people and tell them not to let anyone know?

Some great questions MB. When I was in the PH and we employed those tactics, we felt it was justified because of the bad reputation/negative connotations the church at large had. So at the time it seemed okay. And yet the points you raised makes it clear, for my perspective looking from the outside in, that it is a trick, a con, and an attempt to decieve people to come to church.... very suss indeed.

The Potter wrote:Mr or Ms Shack - didn't Jesus hide his identity?

He only let a select few know who he really was - and when disciples got the revelation, he would tell them to keep it to themselves? In fact he would heal people and tell them not to let anyone know?

You have missed the point, and the fact of why Jesus did what he did is totally un-related and you are just making an eisogetic point.

Mythbuster wrote:

The Potter wrote:Mr or Ms Shack - didn't Jesus hide his identity?

He only let a select few know who he really was - and when disciples got the revelation, he would tell them to keep it to themselves? In fact he would heal people and tell them not to let anyone know?

You have missed the point, and the fact of why Jesus did what he did is totally un-related and you are just making an eisogetic point.

I think you mean eisegetic.

And my intent is to ask a question more than put my point of view across. I don't believe in hiding a churches identity - but I'd like to see how those who do believe in it justify their actions. As someone said in an earlier post - I will learn more from someone who disagrees with me than someone who agrees.

The Potter wrote:Mr or Ms Shack - didn't Jesus hide his identity?

He only let a select few know who he really was - and when disciples got the revelation, he would tell them to keep it to themselves? In fact he would heal people and tell them not to let anyone know?

Perhaps He told people not tell anyone, knowing full well that was a possibility. If you were amazingly healed from blindness, would you say who done it? And this did happen.

Mythbuster wrote:
Why are some church groups afraid to put their name on a flyer?
Are they afraid that no one will show if people made an informed choice to attend? nice show of faith that.
Why do they feel they have to con, trick or deceive people to coming to an event?

In my opinion the local church should be a beacon of hope and light in a community, and shouldn't be ashamed to be known by the community.

Any thoughts?

Dunno, depends where your church is. I don't think ANY fellowship or denomination would be avertising too loudly a church run sausage sizzle or re-fired beans stall in Cuba

Besides being a smarty pants, one could always hide behind the verse, "Be cunning as a snake and innocent as a dove"

Ask your friends do they ever go to a function that they already know will have a clear gospel content?

Alpine

@Alpine, the issue for my friends was not the gospel content, but the way it was presented to them. They felt conned, tricked into being there knowing by hindsight that this paticular churchs goal wasn't to put on a family event.

@the Potter, hang around here long enough and you'll realise spelling is not my strong suit.

In places like China When I lived there we had to be discreet for the safety of those in our underground church. Living in the western world we have the priviledge of being seen, being known, and being there for the broken and lost with no need for deception and subtefuge (however you spell it).

It is interesting that Jesus said "no-one lights a lamp and hides it...". I believe he is referring to the light of the Gospel in someones life shining through. I don't think that Gospel events should be hidden, or that we should trick people into coming to Church events. However in certain countries there is a necessity to use wisdom in advertising as Mythy said. That all being said I think certain events like youth outreaches (ie: bands at skate parks or the like) should have a measure of subterfuge otherwise you wouldn't get 2 teenagers there. A small message like "A Gospel youth event sponsored by such and such a church".

There is also the factor that if your Church has no bad reputation in the community then there is no NEED to hide what Church you are from. People hating Jesus is one thing, but why would people hate your Church if there is no cause for it???

Darth Vader wrote: People hating Jesus is one thing, but why would people hate your Church if there is no cause for it???

If you hate Jesus, it would logically follow that you are highly likely to dislike his fiance as well.

The Potter wrote:

Darth Vader wrote: People hating Jesus is one thing, but why would people hate your Church if there is no cause for it???

If you hate Jesus, it would logically follow that you are highly likely to dislike his fiance as well.

Hmmm not really. I have met a few people that hated Jesus and still liked good honest moral church people. I have also met people who said they loved Jesus and swore at me when I told them what Church I was from lol

Darth Vader wrote:and swore at me when I told them what Church I was from lol

Yeah, it's like the vinyl record grinds to a halt and everyone in the room goes silent.

Mythbuster wrote:...and subtefuge (however you spell it).

With an "R", man, with an "R"! Don't make me start up on you again, pal.

sorry, Rubtefuge. Better yes??

back on topic though, what would cause an organisation to be like this???

fear?

basically yes, and organisation who currency is fear. Fear, when used to control, produces paranioa.

we used to do that not saying it was a church event right back in the eighties .I never felt right about it usually it was a really bad film show about surfing ? nobody in uk at that time had ever been surfing so the story was completely lost on us.As soon as people realised they were conned they got up and left so ushers used to block the exits before the end of the film

This church used the same tactics just down the road from us on Thursday.. "Summer Cinema in the Park" free sausage sizzle.. never mind that most people have bigger TV's and better sound systems than the screen and setup they were using the park..

...well, what if someone was walking the dog, stop and watch the film and get saved.......

Whatever methods are used, if someone hears the Good News, be that street preaching, saugage (saturated fat) sizzle, or just being a friend. At least someone has been added to the Lambs Book of Life.

And the possibility is, and the irony, is that both ECC and PH will probably reap a harvest from each other labours..."one sows and one waters" No doubt this has happened for the last two thousand years.

It's happened to me. I given my testiomony and the Gospel with people I work with and then years later it has come about that someone from a different fellowship has picked up where I left off.

Several years ago an assisatnt AoG pastor (Isaac) said to me, just that. That he was working with a guy that I had some time with. It took me a while to remember his face and name, but Isaac said that this guy had remembered everything I said to him and had been thinking about it all that time.
At first I was bummed, simply because I would have like to see my labours came into the house where I worshipped but quickly I turned from being bummed into praise and thanks and just prayed and hoped that this guy would get saved and serve God along side with Isaac.

Alpine

you still have to be smart.... look at the percentages... most people who 'get saved' are people who have relationship with someone who has a relationship with God. "The Patten" should be thrown out and the PH should be looking outside of it's own eyelids. My opinion of course.

I don't think the pattern is at fault for producing deceptive outreaches. I think years of stretching the boundaries has produced this type of behavior. There are many other Churches that do this not just the PH, I don't think Dave was singling out the PH, Let's not turn this into focusing on the PH topic, and not everybody in PH does it. After all, you and me have both done this type of outreach before

Darth Vader wrote:I don't think Dave was singling out the PH

wut? I've hardly said anything in this thread...

Lol yeah I thought you started the thread. hahahaha Don't mind me lol.

Fish anyway and every way you can. Not all fish chase the same lure or are attracted by the same bait.

For some it's God's love that was the attraction. For me, I just wanted the truth, no matter how uncomforatble it was or still is.

Axe