Logged on as Guest

  • Post new topic
  • Reply to topic

Additional thoughts on free will

Share

DaVe

Posts: 585
Reputation: 74
Join date: 2009-04-15

Additional thoughts on free will

Post by DaVe on Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:32 pm


Excerpts from "Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Chrnalogar

Additional thoughts on free will

The black-and-white mentality is more solidly impressed in your mind by implanting the idea that God will leave you no option if you are serving His will. Typical examples are found in the book, Experiencing God. They imply God isn’t big enough to allow you two or more equally good choices in His will. God has only one thing for you to do each moment and you better be listening and doing or you are out of His will.
Actually things aren't so black and white. God may allow you four choices and you can do any one of them while trusting Jesus, being in His presence, and acting in conformance with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The activity we are doing is less important than doing it with love and asking Jesus to guide our thoughts, words, and actions (I Cor. 13:1-3).
p. 117


God may give us insights if He chooses. Christians can read a lesson without receiving an insight or distinct thought from God. If they don’t hear God’s voice, it doesn’t mean that they will never hear from God or that they are not listening. God does not have to meet the book’s schedule so that you will immediately have a response.
p. 119


When you have a question, they subtly lead you to accept as the answer whatever Bible verse comes to mind. You mind, however, has a limited capacity to memorize verses from among the thousands in Scripture. Therefore, you will not always have memorized the proper verse for whatever path God wants you to follow.
Another form of Bible roulette depends on the Bible to solve all of our daily problems. Whatever passage we happen upon is the one the Lord must be using to tell us how to answer our problem for that day. Some disciples become overconfident, believing God is personally leading them in this manner.
We can learn much from the Bible, but it is self-deception to expect to find the answer in such a random manner. Yes, sometimes we can be directed by Scripture. But sometimes we will act inappropriately if we if we blindly follow a randomly selected Scripture. God wants us to grow in His wisdom by learning all of His Word, and surely He will make good use of the mistakes we make along the way.
p. 130


I confronted “Mark” about his discipleship [group]. While reading the Bible, he came across the word “factious” and instantly thought of me. He reasoned that the Lord was showing him that I was factious and telling him to avoid me. Instead of reasoning with me and thinking things out with the good mind God gave him, Mark cut me off because of his misapplication of Scripture. He refused to consider my side of the matter because he read “factious” somewhere in Scripture. He even told me that, as he read this passage, he said to God, “Lord, are you trying to tell me that Mary Alice is factious?” Much later, one of his elders would tell him my information was accurate and he eventually began to see I was credible.

So how do we know for sure that we are following the desire that God puts in our heart or our own selfish desire?
If the subject is criticism of our discipleship group, as it was when I spoke to Mark, we must be willing to research the matter. Speak to those who question your group. Be willing to read the comments of former members. Don’t be foolishly arrogant and say, “I already know because the Bible and my group give me every answer to life and, therefore, I don’t need to look at anything else.” Such closed thinking is why some people spend their entire lives in destructive groups – they believe it would be sinful if they read derogatory information about their group. That’s exactly what such groups want you to think. If your group has the truth, challenges can hold no fear for you – or for them.
Truth will set you free, but only if you are allowed to hear it and only if you don’t prejudge the information.
pp. 132-133


Additional thoughts on information control
When you have truth in its fullness, you won’t mind being put to the test. When you have the whole truth, you will enjoy probing this truth because it will stand to any challenge. If you fear shining a light into all the practices and beliefs of your group, then you don’t have the truth. When you have the truth, you can question things without the presence or permission of your leaders.
p. 177


If you consistently denigrate outsiders, labelling them as not committed, demonic, or worldly, you can probably prevent the [members] from accepting most information offered by those outsiders. If the information can be prevented from being seen as credible, the subjects will refuse to be informed about the errors you are trying to teach them.

I haven’t written much about the tactic of putting down other groups in order to make your group look better, but it works rather well, and it can be the “final touch” to cement a disciple into your group.

Here is how it is done: Teach your disciples to think that no other Christian church is living a committed Christian life and that no other church is so directly led by God. Under this influence, disciples won’t want to leave even if many teachings and activities are questionable (members of Jim Jones’ cult said that even though things were bizarre, there was no other Christian church that was living the full Gospel). So the idea is to pump up your group as the greatest and demean others.
p. 140

aweebitopinionated

Posts: 271
Reputation: 51
Join date: 2009-04-27
Location: in front of the computer

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by aweebitopinionated on Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:44 pm

[i]quote[/i] "When you have truth in its fullness, you won’t mind being put to the test. When you have the whole truth, you will enjoy probing this truth because it will stand to any challenge. If you fear shining a light into all the practices and beliefs of your group, then you don’t have the truth. When you have the truth, you can question things without the presence or permission of your leaders." unquote
AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN... ...............

in case you can't tell, ..I agree

Mythbuster

Posts: 1248
Reputation: 126
Join date: 2009-04-30
Location: here

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by Mythbuster on Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:01 am

DaVe wrote:here is how it is done: Teach your disciples to think that no other Christian church is living a committed Christian life and that no other church is so directly led by God. Under this influence, disciples won’t want to leave even if many teachings and activities are questionable (members of Jim Jones’ cult said that even though things were bizarre, there was no other Christian church that was living the full Gospel). So the idea is to pump up your group as the greatest and demean others.
p. 140


Now where have I seen this done before????

onwego

Posts: 41
Reputation: 1
Join date: 2009-10-02

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by onwego on Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:53 pm

+
----
-



Excerpts from "Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Chrnalogar

C'mon guys this book was written by a woman! What does she know? Why isn't she at home looking after the kids or doing nursery or making coffee. You guys have lost it!
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
More power to the people!
onwego

Mythbuster

Posts: 1248
Reputation: 126
Join date: 2009-04-30
Location: here

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by Mythbuster on Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:48 pm

very good ha ha classic!!!!

aweebitopinionated

Posts: 271
Reputation: 51
Join date: 2009-04-27
Location: in front of the computer

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by aweebitopinionated on Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:01 pm

onwego wrote:+
----
-



Excerpts from "Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Chrnalogar

C'mon guys this book was written by a woman! What does she know? Why isn't she at home looking after the kids or doing nursery or making coffee. You guys have lost it!
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
More power to the people!
onwego



that IS funny

though you did leave out a couple of other essentially demeaning tasks women were expected to perform, all whilst with the majority of their neurones switched to the "off mode"

it would be even funnier if I wasn't actually living that life a month ago...[shudder ]

Thank God it's over..... PH

sternking

Posts: 24
Reputation: 10
Join date: 2009-10-26

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by sternking on Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:12 pm

I think there is a strong element naivety when it comes to Christians, the Bible and being guided by God.

Pretty much all churches that I know claim to be Bible believing churches yet most have different values, priorities and opinions on parts of the Bible! Also all churches won’t follow the Bible 100% anyway. For example they may discourage marriages with unbelievers based on 2 Cor but still allow themselves to get into business relationships with non Christian organisations, they ban women from preaching but still allow them to not cover their heads, they may only have married men as preachers even though their kids live reckless lives when the Bible clearly says I preacher must have a well run household. So yeah all churches are guilty of picking and choosing.

I have come to find that as well as the fundamental aspects of our faith we are all heavy influenced by 3 other things:

Our church culture: This is the belief system that our local church shares. It is what gives a local church its unique feel and identity. It affects the style of worship, teaching, everything and although most of it is based on scripture it is very subjective.

Our geographic culture: Do you know that most saved people US are pro death penalty yet most saved people in the UK are anti death penalty? How does that work? Answer: geographic culture. Where we live will influence our views on things and how we interpret the Bible.

Finally our personal values: Just because we get saved doesn’t mean we completely discard our own views and values.



Now I would not say any of the above is wrong but it is good to able to acknowledge that our beliefs are influenced by them. Some preachers/churches can teach something that really comes from the above as gospel which we need to watch out for.

aza1701

Posts: 694
Reputation: 41
Join date: 2009-04-23
Location: there

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by aza1701 on Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:27 am

aweebitopinionated wrote:that IS funny

though you did leave out a couple of other essentially demeaning tasks women were expected to perform, all whilst with the majority of their neurones switched to the "off mode"

it would be even funnier if I wasn't actually living that life a month ago...[shudder ]

Thank God it's over..... PH

C'mon Weebit, you may have been in the church but you were NEVER living that life. laugh

You just don't fit the mold Wink

aweebitopinionated

Posts: 271
Reputation: 51
Join date: 2009-04-27
Location: in front of the computer

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by aweebitopinionated on Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:29 pm

aza1701 wrote:
aweebitopinionated wrote:that IS funny

though you did leave out a couple of other essentially demeaning tasks women were expected to perform, all whilst with the majority of their neurones switched to the "off mode"

it would be even funnier if I wasn't actually living that life a month ago...[shudder ]

Thank God it's over..... PH

C'mon Weebit, you may have been in the church but you were NEVER living that life.

You just don't fit the mold

LOL..yeah I was kicking at the goads the whole time, and my Husband NEVER treated me like that, or even wanted that kind of wife....but my pastor thought of women, VERY much like that..it was a constant source of conflict between my Husband and him.

Mythbuster

Posts: 1248
Reputation: 126
Join date: 2009-04-30
Location: here

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by Mythbuster on Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:43 pm

Yes well your doesn't like women wearing pants, so that explains a lot.

aweebitopinionated

Posts: 271
Reputation: 51
Join date: 2009-04-27
Location: in front of the computer

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by aweebitopinionated on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:05 pm

Mythbuster wrote:Yes well your doesn't like women wearing pants, so that explains a lot.


ummmm...you probably need to qualify that statement a bit Mythy!...............Hehehehehe

Mythbuster

Posts: 1248
Reputation: 126
Join date: 2009-04-30
Location: here

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by Mythbuster on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:15 pm

only long dresses or long skirts......

aweebitopinionated

Posts: 271
Reputation: 51
Join date: 2009-04-27
Location: in front of the computer

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by aweebitopinionated on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:49 pm

Mythbuster wrote:only long dresses or long skirts......


PHEW!!!

Mythbuster

Posts: 1248
Reputation: 126
Join date: 2009-04-30
Location: here

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by Mythbuster on Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:20 am

One thing that get's on my nerves is the fact that our God created free will and yet it is the one thing that many pastors try to down play or eradicate in their churches.

germ

Posts: 316
Reputation: 19
Join date: 2009-04-20
Location: in front of computer

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by germ on Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:35 am

and that is why predestination is a pile of dog dung...


_________________
www.GermWorks.net - Debugging Myths of Christianity
www.Kick2Kick.net - Place for expert tips, game wrapups & Dreamteam
www.WotUThink.com - Todays Popular Media from a Christian pov
www.WotUSeek.com - Family Friendly Search Engine

germ aka Jermayn P

Mythbuster

Posts: 1248
Reputation: 126
Join date: 2009-04-30
Location: here

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by Mythbuster on Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:11 am

yes, predestination in the calvanistic sense, i'm with you Germ.

sternking

Posts: 24
Reputation: 10
Join date: 2009-10-26

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by sternking on Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:31 pm

I wouldn't be too quick to gun down Calvinism. In reality both Calvinism and Arminianism has its flaws. Calvinism implies that there is not really free will while Arminianism claims that once you saved that you have the ability to hold your salvation by your own works.
What I would say is yes, we do have a choices in life. Fear is a great motivator and some pastors/leaders are guilty of using fear by telling people they have limited choices when it comes to staying in God's will.

Darth Vader
Moderator

Posts: 400
Reputation: 65
Join date: 2009-05-25

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by Darth Vader on Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:41 pm

germ wrote:and that is why predestination is a pile of dog dung...


Actually predestination is a Bible/NT truth. But I know what you are talking about, however don't throw out the truth because of gross error.


_________________
"Luke...I am your father...Search your heart you know it to be true!"

Mythbuster

Posts: 1248
Reputation: 126
Join date: 2009-04-30
Location: here

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by Mythbuster on Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:08 am

I am not a Calvinist nor am I am Arminianist. Predestination when talking with Calvinists has a different context to predestination when talking to Arminianists. We need to remember that anything taken to the extreme is error.

germ

Posts: 316
Reputation: 19
Join date: 2009-04-20
Location: in front of computer

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by germ on Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:15 pm

Darth Vader wrote:
germ wrote:and that is why predestination is a pile of dog dung...


Actually predestination is a Bible/NT truth. But I know what you are talking about, however don't throw out the truth because of gross error.


Calvinism Predestination is not a biblical truth...
Predestination that God has designed us to be followers of Christ is biblical truth...

btw there is some Calvinism in the PH (especially in regards to the book of revelations).


_________________
www.GermWorks.net - Debugging Myths of Christianity
www.Kick2Kick.net - Place for expert tips, game wrapups & Dreamteam
www.WotUThink.com - Todays Popular Media from a Christian pov
www.WotUSeek.com - Family Friendly Search Engine

germ aka Jermayn P

DaVe

Posts: 585
Reputation: 74
Join date: 2009-04-15

Re: Additional thoughts on free will

Post by DaVe on Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:55 pm

sternking wrote:I think there is a strong element naivety when it comes to Christians, the Bible and being guided by God.

Pretty much all churches that I know claim to be Bible believing churches yet most have different values, priorities and opinions on parts of the Bible! Also all churches won’t follow the Bible 100% anyway. For example they may discourage marriages with unbelievers based on 2 Cor but still allow themselves to get into business relationships with non Christian organisations, they ban women from preaching but still allow them to not cover their heads, they may only have married men as preachers even though their kids live reckless lives when the Bible clearly says I preacher must have a well run household. So yeah all churches are guilty of picking and choosing.

I have come to find that as well as the fundamental aspects of our faith we are all heavy influenced by 3 other things:

Our church culture: This is the belief system that our local church shares. It is what gives a local church its unique feel and identity. It affects the style of worship, teaching, everything and although most of it is based on scripture it is very subjective.

Our geographic culture: Do you know that most saved people US are pro death penalty yet most saved people in the UK are anti death penalty? How does that work? Answer: geographic culture. Where we live will influence our views on things and how we interpret the Bible.

Finally our personal values: Just because we get saved doesn’t mean we completely discard our own views and values.



Now I would not say any of the above is wrong but it is good to able to acknowledge that our beliefs are influenced by them. Some preachers/churches can teach something that really comes from the above as gospel which we need to watch out for.


+1, Good post smile
  • Post new topic
  • Reply to topic

Current date/time is Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:32 am