Here is another bit of info Justlookn, Augustine, the father of this doctrine (being born sinful)believed Psa 51:5 to say that the union of David's parents in which he was conceived was sinful in itself. Augustine believed that intimacy between a man and woman was sinful because it involved lust. The fact that they were married made no difference, as far as he was concerned. He believed that sin was transmitted to the child because of the lust that was involved in the intimacy between husband and wife. Never mind that it is a natural desire given by God and also blessed by God inside a marriage relationship. Bizzare hey?

Another couple of thought provoking questions, Did Man (Adam and Eve) commit the original sin? or did Lucifer? was lucifer created with sin??

Mythbuster wrote:Here is another bit of info Justlookn, Augustine, the father of this doctrine (being born sinful)believed Psa 51:5 to say that the union of David's parents in which he was conceived was sinful in itself. Augustine believed that intimacy between a man and woman was sinful because it involved lust. The fact that they were married made no difference, as far as he was concerned. He believed that sin was transmitted to the child because of the lust that was involved in the intimacy between husband and wife. Never mind that it is a natural desire given by God and also blessed by God inside a marriage relationship. Bizzare hey?

Another couple of thought provoking questions, Did Man (Adam and Eve) commit the original sin? or did Lucifer? was lucifer created with sin??

Thats really interesting MB
I think you need to keep digging...and then tell us what you find out

Mythbuster wrote:Here is another bit of info Justlookn, Augustine, the father of this doctrine (being born sinful)believed Psa 51:5 to say that the union of David's parents in which he was conceived was sinful in itself. Augustine believed that intimacy between a man and woman was sinful because it involved lust. The fact that they were married made no difference, as far as he was concerned. He believed that sin was transmitted to the child because of the lust that was involved in the intimacy between husband and wife. Never mind that it is a natural desire given by God and also blessed by God inside a marriage relationship. Bizzare hey?

Another couple of thought provoking questions, Did Man (Adam and Eve) commit the original sin? or did Lucifer? was lucifer created with sin??

Some Bible theologians (and someone else on this forum) believe that David was the result of a relationship with a woman not Jesse's wife. Which is why he said "in sin i was conceived". And also why they believe that David was not even considered when the prophet came looking to anoint the next king and why his (half) brothers hated him so much. Just a thought to note. I don't agree with Augustine at all. There is nothing sinful about the marriage bed no matter how much lust is involved.

Hebrews13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Anyway just a side issue.

Some good thoughts there Mythy. However you may want to add one more thing to the list of beliefs you're revising:

Mythbuster wrote:Interpret it through original sin-stained glasses and you have added to the Word of God, a crime which carries a stiff penalty according to Revelation 22:18.

Rev. 22:18-19: For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I've always wondered how people come to the conclusion that this verse refers the the entire Bible. I simply don't see the evidence for that. At that time, the New Testament only existed as individual letters that were passed around. The Bible didn't even exist as we know it when John wrote Revelation, so he couldn't be referring to every book that was eventually chosen to be part of the Bible hundreds of years later. And he certainly couldn't be condemning people who were adding or taking away from a book that didn't even exist yet.
It seems to me John is clearly referring to the book of Revelation only.

Yep Dave..that is another one that i have wondered about from time to time...great discussions.

DaVe wrote:Some good thoughts there Mythy. However you may want to add one more thing to the list of beliefs you're revising:

Mythbuster wrote:Interpret it through original sin-stained glasses and you have added to the Word of God, a crime which carries a stiff penalty according to Revelation 22:18.

Rev. 22:18-19: For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I've always wondered how people come to the conclusion that this verse refers the the entire Bible. I simply don't see the evidence for that. At that time, the New Testament only existed as individual letters that were passed around. The Bible didn't even exist as we know it when John wrote Revelation, so he couldn't be referring to every book that was eventually chosen to be part of the Bible hundreds of years later. And he certainly couldn't be condemning people who were adding or taking away from a book that didn't even exist yet.
It seems to me John is clearly referring to the book of Revelation only.

Right on the Knocker Dave. "this book" does only and can only mean the book of Revelations, as it is written for prophecy and not much more!

Good call, Dave. Something that I did overlook, nonetheless, it is something we can extend to the rest of the bible can we not? or we'll have different organisations putting their spin on, taking and adding to the scriptures, then the next stepis the birth of a cult

Rom 3:23 "All have sinned" All still includes all... Even in this modern era... I think?

seagull wrote:Rom 3:23 "All have sinned" All still includes all... Even in this modern era... I think?

Pretty simple answer to the original question imo.

From what I understand, Jesus judges our heart and not our "sins". I guess you could say Children have yet to learn whats right or wrong. A similar question could be "What about the people who never heard of Jesus before they died, where do they go?"

See, the more and more I look at this topic the more sense it makes and more biblical evidence there is for it and unless more evidence surfaces I am am pretty confident that we all are not born sinners.

...and what about all the aborted children, what happens to them???

lil'lotta wrote:...and what about all the aborted children, what happens to them???

They go to heaven

That's the thing LilLotta, if God was a perfect judge and He is, he has no choice but to judge sin regardless of circumstance, unless they have been justified and propitiated by Jesus. If these innocent ones were born with sin inherent within them and they die, they have to be judged in their sin....SO...reason (and scripture) will tell you that they aren't born sinners, but rather born into a sinful world.

My take on this is -
Sin did not begin on earth, satan comitted the first sin in heaven when he tried to overthrow God's throne - Ezekiel 28:12-17 & Isaiah 14:12-14.

Cast down to earth, satan began his second attempt to be worshipped as God, which will culminate in the rebuilt temple 2 Thess 2:3-4 (Daniel's abomination). Man's sin began with satan tempting Eve. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free will, to listen to satan rather than God. It was not a sexual thing, as some people teach, just a direct rejection of God's command not to eat the fruit of that one tree. It wasn't inherited sin, as they had no parents. It wasn't he environment they grew up in, which was the garden of Eden, not an inner city slum.

Dave made a good link to Revelation 22 about adding and taking away from God's word. SATAN began with "Thou shalt not surely die, thou shalt be as Gods" which is a contradiction of God's word. EVE herself then added to God's word "neither shall ye touch it" then altered God's word "lest ye die", and finally took away from God's word "thou shalt surely die".

Sin therefore in all it's many forms is traced back to a concious rejection of God's word or teaching, which very young children cannot do.

hoggie wrote:Adam and Eve chose, of their own free will, to listen to satan rather than God. It was not a sexual thing, as some people teach

Who teaches this??? I have NEVER heard that before.

Augustine describes it as the lust or Sin which is present in sex at mans conception ,thus we are all born in sin .Dont know how we could multiply and fill the earth with that idea.

Especially when God created sex 1) to repopulate but 2) also to enjoy...

There is a scripture in Proverbs (I think) that talks about being conceived in sin. I cannot remember where it is, we talked about this last night a bible study.

http://bible.cc/psalms/51-5.htm
Surely I was born in sin...

That is the scripture (psalms not proverbs) - thanks seagull.

So how does this scripture change our thoughts?

I have already addressed this scripture, the 'original sin' believers rest their entire doctrine on this scripture, which has been taken out of context, to suit them.

Mythbuster wrote:I have already addressed this scripture, the 'original sin' believers rest their entire doctrine on this scripture, which has been taken out of context, to suit them.

I don't understand. In what way? Rom 3:23 All have sinned and fallen ...
Surely this must mean ALL. Even babies?

Mythbuster wrote:if God was a perfect judge and He is, he has no choice but to judge sin regardless of circumstance, unless they have been justified and propitiated by Jesus. If these innocent ones were born with sin inherent within them and they die, they have to be judged in their sin

Hey Myth, if we are born sinners, then the accountability issue discussed is what covers babies/children: God's grace. I haven't looked too deeply into this subject, but whether one is born a sinner or not, the implication is still there that we are born sinners: we sin even before we can talk (knowingly disobedient to parents, as mentioned). You have no conscious control over it to know any better, it is an automatic disposition right from the start. At that age, we are not influenced by our friends or by "the effects of a sinful world", it is simply inherent. You can bubble wrap a baby's life until they're 12 months old from any influence of sin, and it will still manifest in their decisions.

It seems to me that someone who is not born a sinner would have no intention to sin until he is older and able to make a rational decision to sin. That is, he is now at an age of accountability and understanding and can willfully choose to sin, whereas previously as a child, he theoretically would've had no disposition to sin at all (like Christ).

Hey Dave, Lucifer was perfect in a prefect environment and still sinned does that mean he was created with sin inherent? No. Adam was perfect in a perfect environment does this mean he also has a sin nature? No.
There is a part of lives where our desires and lusts are kept, the 'flesh' as Paul calls it, this part is not sinful in and of itself but when given into and God is not placed first then automatically the first commandment is broken, and thus we have sinned. If we were created without this part of our lives then we would have not been created with a will to choose, forced love is not love at all.
Therefore, if our environment is less than perfect (a classic understatement) and has become sinful, thanks to Adam, how much more are we capable to choose and give into sin. In a sinful world our righteousness doesn't compare to our Lord's and thus, fallen short.

Mythbuster wrote:I have already addressed this scripture, the 'original sin' believers rest their entire doctrine on this scripture, which has been taken out of context, to suit them.

Ummm, I re-read your points on the scriptures and to be honest it does not make your points clearer at all, without being an expert and without offending you, it seems you have taken a lot of the scriptures out of context yourself.

Myself im still on the fence with this topic but leaning towards the fact that we are born as sinners due to the fact that we are born from sinners and that generational curse has been passed onto us.

Could the explanation be found in English??

1. You are a Sinner: someone who is so named because they are in the current state of sinning
2. You have Sinned: someone who has committed sin in the past
3. You are Sinning: someone who is sinning at the present time
4. You have a Sin nature: an inherent disposition to sin at any given time either by free will choice or ignorance

So under these parameters a child would not be labeled any of the above 3 but the last number 4. We are all born with a sin nature but that has not developed into any of the previous 4 descriptions by the sheer fact that a baby is not capable of doing so. The age of this capability is in question. I have known some 2 year olds that are angels (my own kids of course ) and I have seen some that need to be locked away for life. J/K but you know what I mean.