Augustine describes it as the lust or Sin which is present in sex at mans conception ,thus we are all born in sin .Dont know how we could multiply and fill the earth with that idea.

Especially when God created sex 1) to repopulate but 2) also to enjoy...

There is a scripture in Proverbs (I think) that talks about being conceived in sin. I cannot remember where it is, we talked about this last night a bible study.

http://bible.cc/psalms/51-5.htm
Surely I was born in sin...

That is the scripture (psalms not proverbs) - thanks seagull.

So how does this scripture change our thoughts?

I have already addressed this scripture, the 'original sin' believers rest their entire doctrine on this scripture, which has been taken out of context, to suit them.

Mythbuster wrote:I have already addressed this scripture, the 'original sin' believers rest their entire doctrine on this scripture, which has been taken out of context, to suit them.

I don't understand. In what way? Rom 3:23 All have sinned and fallen ...
Surely this must mean ALL. Even babies?

Mythbuster wrote:if God was a perfect judge and He is, he has no choice but to judge sin regardless of circumstance, unless they have been justified and propitiated by Jesus. If these innocent ones were born with sin inherent within them and they die, they have to be judged in their sin

Hey Myth, if we are born sinners, then the accountability issue discussed is what covers babies/children: God's grace. I haven't looked too deeply into this subject, but whether one is born a sinner or not, the implication is still there that we are born sinners: we sin even before we can talk (knowingly disobedient to parents, as mentioned). You have no conscious control over it to know any better, it is an automatic disposition right from the start. At that age, we are not influenced by our friends or by "the effects of a sinful world", it is simply inherent. You can bubble wrap a baby's life until they're 12 months old from any influence of sin, and it will still manifest in their decisions.

It seems to me that someone who is not born a sinner would have no intention to sin until he is older and able to make a rational decision to sin. That is, he is now at an age of accountability and understanding and can willfully choose to sin, whereas previously as a child, he theoretically would've had no disposition to sin at all (like Christ).

Hey Dave, Lucifer was perfect in a prefect environment and still sinned does that mean he was created with sin inherent? No. Adam was perfect in a perfect environment does this mean he also has a sin nature? No.
There is a part of lives where our desires and lusts are kept, the 'flesh' as Paul calls it, this part is not sinful in and of itself but when given into and God is not placed first then automatically the first commandment is broken, and thus we have sinned. If we were created without this part of our lives then we would have not been created with a will to choose, forced love is not love at all.
Therefore, if our environment is less than perfect (a classic understatement) and has become sinful, thanks to Adam, how much more are we capable to choose and give into sin. In a sinful world our righteousness doesn't compare to our Lord's and thus, fallen short.

Mythbuster wrote:I have already addressed this scripture, the 'original sin' believers rest their entire doctrine on this scripture, which has been taken out of context, to suit them.

Ummm, I re-read your points on the scriptures and to be honest it does not make your points clearer at all, without being an expert and without offending you, it seems you have taken a lot of the scriptures out of context yourself.

Myself im still on the fence with this topic but leaning towards the fact that we are born as sinners due to the fact that we are born from sinners and that generational curse has been passed onto us.

Could the explanation be found in English??

1. You are a Sinner: someone who is so named because they are in the current state of sinning
2. You have Sinned: someone who has committed sin in the past
3. You are Sinning: someone who is sinning at the present time
4. You have a Sin nature: an inherent disposition to sin at any given time either by free will choice or ignorance

So under these parameters a child would not be labeled any of the above 3 but the last number 4. We are all born with a sin nature but that has not developed into any of the previous 4 descriptions by the sheer fact that a baby is not capable of doing so. The age of this capability is in question. I have known some 2 year olds that are angels (my own kids of course ) and I have seen some that need to be locked away for life. J/K but you know what I mean.

Mythbuster wrote:Hey Dave, Lucifer was perfect in a prefect environment and still sinned does that mean he was created with sin inherent? No. Adam was perfect in a perfect environment does this mean he also has a sin nature? No.

This doesn't counter what I was talking about though. Yes they had perfect environments, but both Adam and Lucifer were adults and had the ability to choose. What I was talking about was babies and children not yet at an age of understanding, and still having an automatic disposition to sinful acts.

The flesh is the soul (mind/will/emotions), and should theoretically be neutral and balanced (not necessarily leaning towards sin or righteousness). Why then, is the 'neutral' flesh bent towards sin? As you mentioned, Paul said the flesh battles against the Spirit. Why should that be? Why do we default to being evil? Why should a baby defy and disobey, and why should a young child lie to his parents? This isn't necessarily a result of them making a logical, willful decision to sin (they're not old enough yet), it's an imbalance and habitual inclination for sin. There's something else going on besides just "the flesh".

Christ was a man without sin, yet He was born on earth. Somehow Christ was unaffected by sin, even in His early years where babies have no mature control over their actions. How did He pull that off? We know He had the option to give in to the flesh when He was an adult, but how did He avoid sin as a toddler when the rest of us failed miserably by the time we were in a high-chair?

Christ was unaffected by this "curse of sin" that plagues the rest of us, and it seems because He was not born from Adam.

germ wrote:

Mythbuster wrote:I have already addressed this scripture, the 'original sin' believers rest their entire doctrine on this scripture, which has been taken out of context, to suit them.

Ummm, I re-read your points on the scriptures and to be honest it does not make your points clearer at all, without being an expert and without offending you, it seems you have taken a lot of the scriptures out of context yourself.

Myself im still on the fence with this topic but leaning towards the fact that we are born as sinners due to the fact that we are born from sinners and that generational curse has been passed onto us.

Don't worry about offending me Germ, I mentioned before that these thoughts thats I am mulling around are not conclusions but they are just thoughts.

One of the factors that brought me into looking at this so called bible 'truth' was the fact that our God is perfect, and he is a perfect judge, so he has to judge sin, no ifs or buts, he has to judge sin. In that line of thinking a child who is sin (as sin is inherent apparently) and if that child were to die, God has no choice but to judge this sin whether this child were ignorant of being a sinner or not. And I don't believe that is God's nature, or really clear (if there at all) in scripture.

DaVe wrote:

Mythbuster wrote:Hey Dave, Lucifer was perfect in a prefect environment and still sinned does that mean he was created with sin inherent? No. Adam was perfect in a perfect environment does this mean he also has a sin nature? No.

This doesn't counter what I was talking about though. Yes they had perfect environments, but both Adam and Lucifer were adults and had the ability to choose. What I was talking about was babies and children not yet at an age of understanding, and still having an automatic disposition to sinful acts.

The flesh is the soul (mind/will/emotions),

I dont think the flesh is the entire soul just a part

DaVe wrote:and should theoretically be neutral and balanced (not necessarily leaning towards sin or righteousness). Why then, is the 'neutral' flesh bent towards sin? As you mentioned, Paul said the flesh battles against the Spirit. Why should that be? Why do we default to being evil? Why should a baby defy and disobey, and why should a young child lie to his parents? This isn't necessarily a result of them making a logical, willful decision to sin (they're not old enough yet), it's an imbalance and habitual inclination for sin. There's something else going on besides just "the flesh".

This is a perception based on a perconceived idea, let me show why...I thought and preached exactly these ideas, and it perfectly with that idea, but that idea is only half the story, My kids show love, my kids suprise me with grace, my kids surprise me with selfless acts before being taught to share etc. my eldest has a knack of bringing all the loner kids at her school into playing in a group, she has a natural disposition to look after the weak kids, or outcasts. My kids show more of these acts than they do lying, stealing, cheating etc. They are born with a moral compass.

DaVe wrote:Christ was a man without sin, yet He was born on earth. Somehow Christ was unaffected by sin, even in His early years where babies have no mature control over their actions. How did He pull that off? We know He had the option to give in to the flesh when He was an adult, but how did He avoid sin as a toddler when the rest of us failed miserably by the time we were in a high-chair?

Christ was unaffected by this "curse of sin" that plagues the rest of us, and it seems because He was not born from Adam.

Why does the bible record the Lord being tempted if there was not a part of him that could be tempted? The answer is Jesus had a flesh side that he never chose to listen to, If jesus was inpervious to temptation why did Satan even try? Lucifer obviously grasped something that we haven't.

Mythbuster wrote:My kids show more of these acts than they do lying, stealing, cheating etc. They are born with a moral compass.

I don't disagree that children are good and do indeed show kind acts - what I was getting at was that they still sin before they're aware what sin is, whereas Christ did not.

Mythbuster wrote:Why does the bible record the Lord being tempted if there was not a part of him that could be tempted?

I did actually already mention that Christ could be tempted: "We know He had the option to give in to the flesh when He was an adult"
I was referring to the temptations by Satan. That was part of my argument - Here is Christ who was well able to be tempted to sin, and yet never sinned as a child. As a child, He had no automatic inclination to sinful behaviour, whereas everyone born of Adam does.

Something at the very core was different about Christ, and I personally would put that down to the fact that He was not born a direct descendant of Adam.

And my point is Dave, that kids choose to do good before they are aware that it is good, you can have a spotless car one day and it will be filthy the next why because of the environment has an inherent dirtiness that gets on the car.
For Christ to be FULLY man He had to have the ability to choose to sin, which as we know He didn't choose sin. If He wasn't fully man then He wouldn't be a perfect sacrifice (I have mentioned this before). Jesus because He was FULLY God as well was able to choose to stay away from the dirt of life, therefore was able to be a spotless, sinless 'lamb'.