I think this may be a contraversial topic, but I would really appreciate everyones thoughts. The reason for this topic is because of the statement "we are all born sinners" which was a cliche saying in the fellowship, and yet I can't find any biblical evidence for it.
Your thoughts?

Romans 5:12 comes immediately to mind - "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned..."

Myth, I would strongly suggest you get yourself a handbook on theology (it doesn't have to be large and comprehensive - there are simpler ones available), and all should have a chapter that explains the biblical view on the state of man.

This is a fundamental belief to christianity, and important that you absolutely know why you believe what you believe.

If you like, I'll post some more when I get home tonight - but as I said, you need to establish and know for yourself what the bible says on this issue.

I know the state of man, and Of course ALL have sinned. If we were born sinners a perfect God would have to judge that inherent sin regardless of age, so if a child dies in their sin they have the misfortune of being doomed to a hell created for satan. (Matthew 18:3) "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." - This lends us to the fact that children are not born totally depraved. There a few more scriptures but this one will do for now.
I am open to being corrected, but I see more biblical evidence against being born a sinner than for being born a sinner.

The only one not born a sinner was Jesus, because He was not born of the seed of a man, ie: not genetically conceived in the full bloodline of Adam. He was incarnate of the virgin Mary, therefore conceived without the genetic information (and the inherited curse of sin that came with it) of man.

The full story of mankind's now inherent sin, is in Genesis, the curse of sin was on all Humans after Adam & Eve sinned, it can only be lifted by Jesus' blood...plus Mythy,...you have kids....is there really any question about this!!?

That's what I thought, until I started reading scripture without the preconceptions that came along with the fellowship. Remeber even Jesus could have chosen to sin.

Also Xaine if you could post some more I would appreciate it. I am working through things one at a time and there are a lot of issues still on the to do list if you get my drift. This is one issue I am trying to prove or disprove and once I have finshed I will then have another conviction to hold fast to.

Mythbuster wrote:That's what I thought, until I started reading scripture without the preconceptions that came along with the fellowship. Remeber even Jesus could have chosen to sin.

Mythy, not fellowship...this is fundandmental christianity...I grew up in a "non-fellowship" Christian family, I know hundreds of Christians from all different denominations (not counting PH)..and they all believe this..it's Christianity 101...children are not accountable for their sin..but they are born into sin

So God the perfect judge of sin picks and chooses whom He thinks should be judged or not judged for being a sinner, it seems contradictory.

I agree with weebit.... and I think that although we are born sinners, God doesnt hold that sin to our account until we reach an age where we can begin to choose whether to sin or try to do the 'right' thing.
As parents, we see our kids begin to develop a moral compass, and it comes from within as well as from parental teachings and social pressure to conform. Once we begin to know good from bad, and knowingly choose the bad, it is held to our account.
This is something I believe, not because it was taught in PH, but because it makes sense to me. A loving God would not condemn us if we didn't know any better -- and I cannot believe that people are basically good because I have seen the evidence to the contrary!

Good on you Mythy...for opening up these discussions...its great to be able to read what people believe and why...and along with you ...i am constantly being faced with why do i believe what i believe....
I have another one...why do we believe that a child goes to heaven if he or she dies before accepting Christ...I have allways beleived it based on age of understanding..and the fact that God is a God of grace...but whewre is the biblical reason for beleiving that...

well I have a child who died aged 7 weeks. From what I know of the nature of God, I find it absolutely impossible to believe that he would be denied a place in Heaven simply because he didnt live to be old enough to say the sinners prayer. I cant point to a Scripture to back that up, and maybe it's just my mothers' heart wanting to believe, but I couldnt follow a God who would be so demanding.

mumsie wrote:well I have a child who died aged 7 weeks. From what I know of the nature of God, I find it absolutely impossible to believe that he would be denied a place in Heaven simply because he didnt live to be old enough to say the sinners prayer. I cant point to a Scripture to back that up, and maybe it's just my mothers' heart wanting to believe, but I couldnt follow a God who would be so demanding.

I beleive this also...but it is because i understand who God is and his nature..it is the only way to think when we see the horrific things that happen to children all over the world...its just that i have never heard anyone back this with scripture...i guess it is one of those ones that we beleive because we know God...interested to hear whart people have to say about it
I feel the need to clarify why i asked this question..because i absolutely didnt mean to offend ...a pastor once said to me that he believed that it was only children of a saved parent or parents that went to heaven ..and he used a scripture in tht NT..and i cant remember where it was...but it was something about being sanctified ??? and that has never sat right with me...but i cant give a scriptural reason why..its just what i personally believe

justlookn wrote:Good on you Mythy...for opening up these discussions...its great to be able to read what people believe and why...and along with you ...i am constantly being faced with why do i believe what i believe....
I have another one...why do we believe that a child goes to heaven if he or she dies before accepting Christ...I have allways beleived it based on age of understanding..and the fact that God is a God of grace...but whewre is the biblical reason for beleiving that...

Thanks for the encouragement Justlookn, I know that opening up these types of discussions people are going to think that I have serious issues and they will take my comments in other areas of this forum lightly because I may not have their same view of christianity 101 , but like you guys are starting to see is that sometimes there is no biblical proof for the ideas that we have held on to for so long. Just because we have heard ideas bantered around in modern church circles for so long we believe that these ideas are infallible.

justlookn wrote:

mumsie wrote:well I have a child who died aged 7 weeks. From what I know of the nature of God, I find it absolutely impossible to believe that he would be denied a place in Heaven simply because he didnt live to be old enough to say the sinners prayer. I cant point to a Scripture to back that up, and maybe it's just my mothers' heart wanting to believe, but I couldnt follow a God who would be so demanding.

I beleive this also...but it is because i understand who God is and his nature..it is the only way to think when we see the horrific things that happen to children all over the world...its just that i have never heard anyone back this with scripture...i guess it is one of those ones that we beleive because we know God...interested to hear whart people have to say about it
I feel the need to clarify why i asked this question..because i absolutely didnt mean to offend ...a pastor once said to me that he believed that it was only children of a saved parent or parents that went to heaven ..and he used a scripture in tht NT..and i cant remember where it was...but it was something about being sanctified ??? and that has never sat right with me...but i cant give a scriptural reason why..its just what i personally believe

no offence taken.... and yeah i have heard some strange stuff preached about this too, using scriptures that seem to contradict with who we know God to be. I dont know what the answer is, I only know what I hope for.

And yes, MB, it is good to talk about these things and sort what we know from what we've been taught.

The wisest man to have ever lived King Solomon said this in Ecclesiastes 7:29

Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.

James says this in the bible

14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death

James explains here that all men are tempted through the desires of their sensibility. These constitutional desires and appetites are not sinful in themselves. They are merely the occasion to temptation, and it is only when they are gratified contrary to the law of God and reason that they become sinful.
Some commentators say that the reason people believe that they are born sinners is to explain how sin is universal, but these people don't realise temptation is just as universal. Our flesh is not sinful but our flesh houses our selfish desires and temptation plays on those desires.
food for thought...when you dive into this topic the conclusion is not as simple as first thought.

Are you suggesting that we are not born sinners...but born separate from God...that the sin is something that comes as we give into the desire for things

It's a possibility, not born seperate from God because the bible said He formed us in the womb, if God did create us in the womb and breathed life in us why would He deliberately create sin in us. All this is just a surmising, out of the religious box look at the scriptures. The bible as they say is shallow enough for a new believer to wade through and deep enough for a theologian to drown in

There is a kind of simple answer to this question! James 4:17 - 17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

You have children doing things that are wrong and are essentially "born in sin" but they don't know or understand exactly what they are doing, and here james writes that sin is sin to those who know what is good or "right" and yet chooses not to do it. So although children many times do the wrong thing, i believe they don't understand it and this is something only God can really see............ Yep it's up to him....! 

Hope that helps! 

How come you never have to teach a child how to be naughty?

Interesting thought, Myth. I think we believe that we are born sinners because it is implied in scripture: "Unless a man be born again, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God", "there is none righteous, no not one", etc. No, those scriptures don't specifically say we are born as a sinner. But either way we're technically in sin by the time we're old enough to understand the gospel anyway. It's inevitable.

With regards to children not being accountable for sin, the scripture usually used to support this is II Samuel 12:23. David says, "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him [in heaven], but he shall not return to me."

lil'lotta wrote:How come you never have to teach a child how to be naughty?

My point exactly,..plus children, from a Biblical standpoint are under the authority or "law" of their parents or guardians...and the first thing they do as soon as they are cognitively able to, is break or challenge that law. I'm assuming the only one who didn't do that was Jesus...(his poor siblings who came after Him must've copped a lot of "why can't you be more like your brother?!") ...but basically Humans challenge any rules they're given as soon as they are able to..Adam and Eve only had ONE rule!!!...and they broke it,..God identifies that as sin.

As for when a child becomes accountable to God for that sin, well, in regards to unsaved people The Bible says:
^"14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, ¹⁵ who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) ¹⁶ in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel." Romans 2; 14-16

Therefore by this scripture and many others ( do a NT search on "conscience" on Bible Gateway" ) we can deduce that conscience is key to how men will be judged by God. And according to behavioural scientists, humans develop a mature conscience sometime between the ages of 7 and 12, depending on the child..so if that is true, then it would be fair to presume that a child will be judged according to their maturity and understanding, this would also apply to mentally disabled adults.
All this "age of reasoning" stuff is of course purely speculative, but I believe the scriptures give us some framework to speculate around.

Myth - it would be impossible to do justice to this issue in a simple posted reply on a forum, so I apologise in advance for the brevity of this response.

Put simply, this has been a question raised throughout history, and I'm going to grossly summarise the response (that normally has whole chapters dedicated to it) this way.

Basically, in Adam we all inherit the capacity for sin (which as others have pointed out, is visibly demonstrated in infants being so self-centered, oblivious to the needs of others). But "original sin" - the fact that we are born sinners - does not directly entail guilt. By this, I mean that even though we are born sinners (because of Adam), we are not found "guilty" until we make the moral choice to sin (very loosely, this is where the "age of accountability" comes into it - and while typing this, aweebit posted above, nicely explaining this issue).

This can be best understood going back to Rom 5:18 - "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men..." Now, we know that Christ's death does not automatically mean that everyone is saved - it's not until you personally appropriate that for yourself that the power of salvation works in our lives. The same with the comment about "in Adam, all are sinners."

Now technically, this creates a loophole where if you just don't sin, then sin's guilt is not imputed to you. But the reality is that the power of sin in our lives means that (as mentioned above) there was only every One human being that was actually able to make that choice.

Once again, I apologise for this response - only because it's impossible to fully answer your question in such a brief response, and in fact I've probably raised more questions than answers! I can scan in some stuff to read (and PM it to you) if you're really interested, but can I encourage you to get hold of some books (or sites) that explain this issue of "original sin" (as most theology books give it the heading of, when discussing it).

justlookn wrote:

mumsie wrote:well I have a child who died aged 7 weeks. From what I know of the nature of God, I find it absolutely impossible to believe that he would be denied a place in Heaven simply because he didnt live to be old enough to say the sinners prayer. I cant point to a Scripture to back that up, and maybe it's just my mothers' heart wanting to believe, but I couldnt follow a God who would be so demanding.

I beleive this also...but it is because i understand who God is and his nature..it is the only way to think when we see the horrific things that happen to children all over the world...its just that i have never heard anyone back this with scripture...i guess it is one of those ones that we beleive because we know God...interested to hear whart people have to say about it
I feel the need to clarify why i asked this question..because i absolutely didnt mean to offend ...a pastor once said to me that he believed that it was only children of a saved parent or parents that went to heaven ..and he used a scripture in tht NT..and i cant remember where it was...but it was something about being sanctified ??? and that has never sat right with me...but i cant give a scriptural reason why..its just what i personally believe

Im in the wrong place for this...so this is the last i will say on this topic...but the scripture im talking about is 1cor.7 14 where it talks about *unsaved husband or wife being sanctified by the saved husband or wife..therefore the children would be unclean and now they are holy*
I am intending to look further into it to really understand it.

Thanks for all of your posts, It doesn't go anywhere near proving we are born sinners, all those posts just tell me that sin is a choice, a decision made, if you will. I hope that thease types of topics can get people to think outside of the religious box, and really question what they believe.
All of your posts have been to justify your predetermined stance, and I am mearly asking a question to which no one is willing to (except maybe xaine) even look into the issue from my perspective. I am not saying this to be a jerk, I used to get really frustrated when talking to people who weren't on my side of the fence, and just brush them off if they didn't come around, now I am trying to train my brain into stopping to find out what others believe and why? The more I do this the more I find how flimsy my theology really is.

well I think I have questioned what I believe, and believe it anyway. Just because it is taught in PH doesn't mean I have to now disregard it. I dont think your question is very clear, and maybe that is why you arent getting the answers you're looking for.