This is a movement that is rooted in pride and ego. These men have taken Jesus out of the equation, and placed themselves as the mediator between the regular christians and God. They then become the final word in doctrine, in life issues, in christians decisions. I am glad Bob repented.

An interesting comment by Ken Haining:

This [article] was addressed in the fellowship. It was said that they went too
far in "repenting," and that they renounced Biblical discipleship. It
was asserted that we weren't going to fall for this nonsense, and that
God still blessed the discipleship which was taught by Wayman O., and
which was based on the Bible.

Ken

I personally had no idea that the Fellowship verbally recognized that it was following the Discipleship Movement teachings. I had never heard it specifically mentioned over the pulpit. Though I only realized the similarities recently.

In the article they don't completely dismiss the ideas of discipleship or accountability. They repented for the extremes that these churches and pastors went to, "lording it over" their congregation.

There are three things the PH will never do 1) Admit they were wrong 2) Repent for being wrong 3) Change... and why?? because there is a pride filled man who sits at the very top of pile who will not admit that he took the wrong path, he believes legalism aids PH and not hinders it. Legalism and this particular discipleship movement has great fleshly reward for all those in leadership positions, ego are built up, personal finances are added too etc. and the innocents are sucked into believing a lie.

DaVe wrote:

This [article] was addressed in the fellowship. It was said that they went too
far in "repenting," and that they renounced Biblical discipleship. It
was asserted that we weren't going to fall for this nonsense, and that
God still blessed the discipleship which was taught by Wayman O., and
which was based on the Bible.

Ken

I personally had no idea that the Fellowship verbally recognized that it was following the Discipleship Movement teachings. I had never heard it specifically mentioned over the pulpit. Though I only realized the similarities recently.

I would take what Ken says with a grain of salt..
He was not even in the church (and out for a while) when this original article came out.

Ken, was in the PH from 1975 - 1994, with 14 of those years pastoring. I know he is now an agnostic, and doesn't believe what we believe, that doesn't discount the fact his opinion is very valid, being that he was exposed the upper eschalons of the PH pile for a long time and would have seen and heard things that would have never filtered down to the lowly pew dwelling maggots.

I thought he left in the 80's, so my bad...
However I have read quite a few of his comments (like all of us I am sure) but even so you need to take his comments with a grain of salt, one factor being an agnostic but also some of his claims are down right outrageous (like WM being a sex addict with women on the side) and the way he has behaved also imo gives him less credit.

BUT yes he does have some good points but just take it with a grain of salt.

germ wrote:but also some of his claims are down right outrageous (like WM being a sex addict with women on the side)

I haven't read any outright claims by Ken on this sort of thing. I generally haven't known him to make up lies and present them as truth, though he does speculate a lot. What you mentioned above has been speculated in an article on Cracked Pots which written by someone else. But the author made it clear he was only speculating.

Not that outrageous, and any bloke who leaves his wife at home to go to motels in Phoenix by himself to be refreshed and have private ministry time should be look at with suspicion.

Mythbuster wrote:Not that outrageous, and any bloke who leaves his wife at home to go to motels in Phoenix by himself to be refreshed and have private ministry time should be look at with suspicion.

Why??
Sounds like you guys are just as bad by speculating and stating rumours as truth just like the members still in the PH, maybe you have not changed your spots yet....

Ken does indeed make some good points but speculation and twisting it with truth (he never clearly stats what is truth and speculation) imo makes him just as bad as the people he is talking about.

I am just saying Ken's speculation is not that outrageous based on what Wayman has done in the past (I have been moderate in disclosing info). I have not claimed any untruth as truth.

What is interesting is that over the years I have noted that those Pastors (in or out of the House) that championed the cause against any particular sin have later been exposed to be hiding that sin themselves. Swaggart was one. The original Pastor of Walthamstow who was exposed to be living in adultery I found out later by someone in the Church was actually preaching constantly against adultery. It is an interesting oxymoron. I have noted in other areas of secular life and even remember a Pastor who spoke vehemently against casinos and gambling was caught gambling himself. Though I can't remember who it was.

Just an interesting point looking at things from another angle. I have heard countless sermons about fornication and adultery by WM and comments like "cover your boobs" being well noted as constantly being preached by WM.

Not saying I agree either way just a point is all I am making.

I have always said the issues or sins that you notice or judge the most easily in someone else is generally the issues or sins that are most prevalant in your own life.

Yes that is true DV but surely all of you guys have been hurt and angry by false rumours and half truths since leaving the PH but your doing the same thing by saying stuff about WM.

Has he been exposed or caught going to a brothel or watching porn while away on these retreats?

EDIT DUE TO MB POST:
You two raise a good point and I think what is really missing from pastors is their own openness, Pastors do not open up to their congregation and they lie or gloss over their own 'issues/ sins'.

I know of one pastor (not in the PH) who struggled with porn and he struggled for 5 years to get fully over it but he always preached and talked about how he does not understand how people can struggle with it and God healed him from it almost automatically. This attitude and not being open, lead to several men (that I know) to struggle and be condemned with their issues.

germ wrote:Yes that is true DV but surely all of you guys have been hurt and angry by false rumours and half truths since leaving the PH but your doing the same thing by saying stuff about WM.

Has he been exposed or caught going to a brothel or watching porn while away on these retreats?

EDIT DUE TO MB POST:
You two raise a good point and I think what is really missing from pastors is their own openness, Pastors do not open up to their congregation and they lie or gloss over their own 'issues/ sins'.


I know of one pastor (not in the PH) who struggled with porn and he struggled for 5 years to get fully over it but he always preached and talked about how he does not understand how people can struggle with it and God healed him from it almost automatically. This attitude and not being open, lead to several men (that I know) to struggle and be condemned with their issues.

Sorry Germ, I am merely noting an interesting thing about human nature and not intending to cast aspersions on WM at all or spread rumours about him. I apologize if that is what came across in my post.

And yes Pastors need to watch out for hypocrisy just like everybody else. The "leaven" of the pharisees can invade every area of our lives. We all need to watch out for this.

Yes, openess and transperancy is the way to go. Pastors should not be afraid to tell individuals about issues, it not beyond people or above people, if you control information you start on a slippery slope.