Below are some great thoughts on how much we actually hear from God, and some reasons why some people have an over-dependence on their pastor (i.e., running to pastor everytime something goes wrong).



Excerpt from "Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Chrnalogar

Whose will is it? (part 1)

One mind can be influenced by God or evil
Many manipulative groups apparently want to make you think that the mind has two parts: one which God inspires and one which is human nature. The human part is always, according to them, operating contrary to God’s will.

Some groups make a distinction between the mind and the spirit, suggesting that the mind can be deceived, but God will speak to our spirit. These groups teach their disciples to believe that once we commit ourselves to Christ, we must completely turn from all our former desires, goals, and ways of thinking. They teach that we must find a new way to live based not on simple reasoning, but on discerning God’s will.

We can be easily confused if we believe that we can’t use our own minds (minds that God gave us) to find His Will. It is equally perplexing to think that our simple human reasoning is always contrary to God’s Will. How are you supposed to figure all this out? Discipleship! Discipleship groups characteristically assure you that if you have a “covering of authority” (theirs, of course), you will find God’s Perfect Will.

When Jesus said, “everyone who is of the truth hears my voice” (John 18:37), He meant that those upholding the commandments of God were paying attention to his voice. He did not mean that we would all hear Him speaking to us as clearly as did Moses, Abraham, and Noah.

I do ask Jesus to bless my work and direct my thoughts, but I don’t demand that God speak to me as He did to Jonah (although I would count it a great blessing if He did). Like every Christian, I sometimes wished that God would dictate every move I should make. The fact is, God gave us freedom. Within that wide range of freedom there are many choices, within moral limits, that are within God’s Perfect Will.

God gave a few people such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah direct revelation, but to claim that God will speak to everyone this way is heresy. God used these individuals to lead His people and for special missions. If God gave all His children direct revelation, then all denominations wouldn’t be continually contradicting one another. The truth is, sometimes God does show us clearly and sometimes He doesn’t.

Those who propagate this narrow understanding of “hearing God speak” repeatedly tell you that, when God speaks to you, you must know that it is God as clearly as did Moses. You must know what God says, even as Noah did, and you must know what to do in response just as did Abraham. These authors claim, “If you have trouble hearing God speak [like this], you are in trouble at the very heart of your Christian experience.

If you find this teaching attractive, let me warn you: At times you will think you know God is telling you what to do and then (sometimes years later) you will realize it wasn’t God. This does not mean that you are in trouble at the very heart of your Christian experience. Demanding this kind of direct assurance and guidance from God may cause you unnecessary guilt. (One husband complained how his wife became alarmed thinking he “didn’t belong to God” because he could not say that he heard God this clearly.)

What test can you make to assure that you belong to God? Is it hearing a directive that you attribute to God? No, the real test is made by reading the entire passage in John 8:31-53. If you hold to Jesus’ teaching, then you know you are listening to God and hearing Him. If we love each other, we are hearing from God and we can be assured that we belong to Him.

(continued next post...)

Whose will is it? (part 2)

A discipler asked me if God told me to mail a certain letter I had written. I replied that I felt it was the right think to do, but I couldn’t say God told me to do it. Since I couldn’t say that it was God telling me what to do, the discipler inferred that something was wrong with my relationship to God. The fruits that our lives bear, not our claim that God is speaking to us, tell if we are following God’s Will.

“Doug,” a former discipler, explains how hard it was for him “to hear God speak”:

I had to distinguish which voice was of the Lord and which was my mind’s or the devil’s. Now that I learned in this new Christianity that God would always tell me what to do, I certainly was listening to all my thoughts. I’d hear, “Go to Pittsburgh” and I would think “That’s crazy. I’m in school down here in Tennessee. Maybe it is God because I don’t want to do it…”

I felt forced into using the language of others. “Sarah” (another member) would say that “The Lord had me visit John today or the Lord showed me this.” I used to say, “I am going to see Sarah.” Then I always said, “The Lord had me visit Sarah today.”

I also felt uncomfortable that everyone was saying what the Lord showed them. I couldn’t be sure what the Lord showed me, and what was my own inclinations, so I felt it was best not to put everything on the Lord. After a while, I felt terrific pressure to think of something that the Lord was showing me. It may not have been the Lord but I felt so much pressure to find something that the Lord had showed me that I did find something.
Now I realize that, in regular English language before this group, I would have said, “This is what I learned today.” Then I always said, “The Lord showed me this or taught me that.” Maybe it was the Lord or maybe it wasn’t. Being away from it all now, I feel free and I’m not being pressured into figuring it all out.

Fear of Missing God’s Will
Because of the thrust of controlling groups to make one seek God’s direction for every detail of one’s life, disciples become afraid they may be “missing” God’s Will. Some disciples actually feel a kind of terror. They are afraid they might not hear God, which leads them to even greater dependency on advice from the discipler [leader/pastor]. It was planted in their minds that they would hear clearly from God and should not make decisions through their rational thinking. One former victim said it reached the point where she was so afraid of “missing it” that she always relied on a teaching or someone “older in the Lord’ to tell her what to do.

As noble as this all-or-nothing way of thinking about God’s will sounds, it is not Scriptural. For example, Romans 14:6 says: “Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God.” In matters that do not concern the moral guidelines of Scripture, we are free to do whatever we want, so long as we do it for the Lord.

Jesus was upset with the Pharisees because they thought they knew God’s Will for just about everything and they complained because His disciples didn’t wash their hands before they ate. Jesus made it clear that it wasn’t the rituals that made a man clean. It wasn’t the things on the outside that made a man dirty. It was the heart that Jesus was concerned about (Matt. 15:1-20). Keeping ourselves pure in thought and keeping our heart clean from evil is what Jesus demanded. In abusive discipleship, however, we are told that we should expect God to tell us every move we should make, even whether it is His Will that we should eat pancakes or waffles.

If you accept the teaching of many abusive leaders that God’s will allows only one choice for each action in your life, then there is virtually no freedom for the devoted Christian.

As I have said in previous posts and it was a topic at church last night, a lot of people have an incorrect view of headship. If you study this out you will find that Jesus is the head of the body (the church) not the pastor, Jesus is the ultimate sufficiency in heading up His church, Jesus is our headship no one else. Pastors who usurp this postion are on a dangerous path. A pastors authority stops at the word of God.
Many people are guilty of placing the under-shepherd at the head because they are too lazy to seek the true head of the church, and they like being told what to do. This mind set caters for their insecurities and ultimately their fleshly side " I don't trust myself" etc. This does more damage than good all it does is make us vulnerable to false teaching and wolves in sheeps clothing.

Dave really liking this Twisted scripture stuff especially that black and white example .I came to see that myself years ago and infact used it in a post yesterday describing the atmosphere in our congregation .Seeing it in black and white ,good or bad ,God or devil. We have had a very long and difficult journey since leaving ph not because of them but because churches in UK have all gone down the new age route ,we have seen so many weird things it almost made us think ph is right that nobody else is saved or even sane ! there are a large number of people we come accross finding the same thing ,churches that had long history of good testimony going over to staring into flames or having glove puppets take the service ,one had a seven year old girl minister and the whole church took to flying round on imaginary wings during the song service .We now attend a small independant home church with no connection to any organised group and are starting from scratch

That's pretty weird hoggie. Does the UK have an AOG or Foursquare presence at all?

Yeah, this book has some really insightful portions in it. I'll be putting some more up soon. I didn't want to post so much from one book, but it's simply great stuff.

Hey Hoggie, Sorry didn't realise you'd already left PH, I have heard that some of the pentecostal churches in the UK have gone down some "interesting" tracks...
Hey, what about some of the Non-Charismatic, Evangelical churches?..CWR ministries, who Selwyn Hughes started, have some very balanced teachings, and they're linked to lot's of evangelical churches over there, plus the Alpha course started over there too and it's been good also, so there must be somewhere decent to worship, maybe you can contact either of those organisations and enquire about churches they're associated with.

All of the people in our new group about a dozen regulars now ,have come out of AOG because of the new direction it seems to be heading .Fantastic music ministry but very little else.We tried every church in a drivable distance and the same seems to be happening all over also a high percentage of them cant get a Pastor ,we went through websites and stuff and it seems our experience is very common we are ok now and settled in a new planted local church

Can't we just go to Church and be in God's presence and enjoy our relationships with God without having to be ripped off or manipulated by some person with a giant ego who wants to control us. Or told what we can and can't do other than what the Word of God says. Or made to feel guilty or condemned because we don't meet the expectations of others.

What part of "Servant" don't these people understand????

I for one am sick of Pastors manipulating the people in their Church for selfish ends. Thank God he will judge Pastors etc. with a higher standard.

It happens when they claim God's increase as their own.

Too many churches are run by the whims and emotion of one man.

As I alluded to in my previous post, This mindset happens these pastors see the church not as God's church but as 'MY' church, 'MY' ministry, in their mind God doesn't give the increase, it's 'I HAVE' won these people, with 'MY' strategies. These people do not realise their righteousness is as filthy rags, and they are lower than maggot droppings in the light of Gods holiness just like the rest of us.