Srettop Shack wrote:Hi Darth
I appreciate your response, however there is one part that I find confusing, you said:
"Jesus taught above that you don't have to obey those who set themselves
up as "Spiritual Rulers" and especially when they are hypocrites"
However the scripture you quoted said:
2“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you
To me there appears to be a contradiction between the scripture and your statement. Could you please explain that to me?
Cheers

Hi Srettop, yes you make a good point...My intention was to highlight the fact that Jesus made a difference between the Pharisees teachings and their lifestyle. Because they sat in Moses seat they were teaching the law and Jesus never faulted them on their teaching. He faulted them on the "spirit" of their teaching (binding heavy burdens) and their hypocrisy. He taught not to DO what they did because that would lead you into hypocrisy as well. Remember he taught "a little leaven leavens the whole lump"
I will edit my post to reflect this clearly.

To answer your question The Potter..
God does expect us to follow the examples of spiritual leaders but not to follow them. We are to follow Jesus. God's will for their lives may be different to his will for your life. And remember, Jesus taught that whoever wanted to be great had to be a servant of all. Not someone who is commanding you to do this and that and expect obedience. I find it interesting in my Christian walk that God never forces me to do anything, I have a free will. So even God doesn't force obedience and threaten with fear etc but rather he inspires and promises fruit and blessing as a result of obedience.

We are not expected to follow anybody that is in error. Paul himself taught this over and again. Galatians is clear. "Who has Bewitiched you" and "If we or an angel from heaven preach any other Gospel than hat you have already received..." John said to "test the spirits"
I find it amazing that I actually believed for years that I had to follow a man no matter what he taught simply because he was a "Pastor". It is not true, I have a headship and his name is Jesus. My Pastor is not my headship or my ruler. This is where the teaching has gone into error, nowhere will you find in the NT that your Pastor is your headship and has to be obeyed at all costs. In fact the Bible teaches us that Jesus is our headship not a Pastor. (1 Cor 11:3)

To your last question, this is quite a disturbing one. For many years I believed that what my pastor told me was right...was right. Many times I read the Bible and found contradiction between the two. My question is this. At what point in our lives did a man become more of an authority to us than the Word of God did. To know what is right and wrong in life you simply need to know your Bible. Your Spiritual leader shouldn't solely be the one telling you what is wrong and right. Your first port of call should be the Bible. And if any man's teaching doesn't line up with the W.O.G. than the man is wrong. We tend to trust spiritual leaders and pastors too much in my opinion because of relationship.

Hope that helps.

Darth
You have said the following: "nowhere will you find in the NT that your Pastor is your headship and has to be obeyed at all costs". However verse 3 in the scripture that you quoted says: "you must obey them and do everything they tell you". Jesus was taking about the pharisees who he clearly didn't get on well with, however he was telling the people to obey them. And his directive had no caveats - he didn't say obey some of the things they tell you to do, he used the word everything!

The Potter wrote:Darth
You have said the following: "nowhere will you find in the NT that your Pastor is your headship and has to be obeyed at all costs". However verse 3 in the scripture that you quoted says: "you must obey them and do everything they tell you". Jesus was taking about the pharisees who he clearly didn't get on well with, however he was telling the people to obey them. And his directive had no caveats - he didn't say obey some of the things they tell you to do, he used the word everything!

Hmmm. Interesting point. But Jesus is not talking about Pastors he is talking about Pharisees teaching the law. So I will repeat my statement.
"nowhere will you find in the NT that your Pastor is your headship and has to be obeyed at all costs". Find it for me.

Look at it and see it clearly...."Them" being Pharisees...who sit in Moses seat...teaching the Law...Pastors are not Pharisees. Jesus is not teaching unquestioned obedience to Pastors. Show me in the scriptures where it says your Pastor is your headship. Scripture has to be translated in context and not twisted to suit our interpretation.

However, if my Pastor teaches me what is right from the Word of God then I should listen to what he has to say and obey the scriptures. Agreed.

But it reminds me of kids who say "he told me to do it" and parents who say. "If he told you to jump off a cliff would you do it". You get the picture. How far will you obey your Pastor? Into sin, I can tell you that it has happened to me and many people over the years and it isn't right. A Pastor once told me to say something very nasty to a brother (new convert) in the Church, and as I was very young and believed I had to do everything he told me to do so I went ahead and did it. The result was I lost a friend, he was hurt and ended up leaving the Church and I violated my conscience because I knew it was wrong. So in that instance I should have said "no".

So I ask these questions...
1. Since when in scripture did disobeying a Pastor become disobeying God?
2. Would you obey your Pastor even if it meant you were violating scripture?

I think "at all costs" is a wrong extreme. However, Hebrews 13 (specifically verses 7 and 17) show the importance of having leaders in our lives.

But the balance is also brought in verse 9 (which answers the question you posed about obedience at all costs).

I have no problems in "obeying" my pastor (non-PH church) because I see the fruits of his life in being submitted to God. However, I also have the responsibility to correctly discern if he's taking his role seriously, or if he's "lording" it over the flock - if I ever picked up on that (which is highly unlikely given his character), then I'd be asking God to lead me to another church.

I see it like the marriage statements in Eph 5 - yes, wives are to submit to their husbands, but the balance is that husbands are to also be submitted to their wives "as Christ was for the church". Submission is not a lower position - it's an attitude of respect acknowledging the correct posture of a husband that esteems his wife higher than himself (which sadly can and does get abused).

Same with pastors - going back to Heb 13, we are to obey them, but only as we see fruits of a life submitted to Christ and correctly fulfilling the God-ordained office of pastor, seeing as they should actually be feeling the weight of "someone who must give a greater account" later on.

Hope this brings some balance.

On reflection, I thought I'd better clarify what I mean by "submission" to my pastor. That is in all spiritual areas of my life, as I believe that is what Hebrew 13 is talking about, not EVERY aspect of my life. My pastor doesn't "recommend" what clothes I wear, or what job I work, or even what church I go to.

If I made that decision, in respect I would tell him the reasons for moving, and I know that I would go with his blessing, regardless of his personal feelings about me going.

The scripture in Hebrews 13 talks about those who rule over you. This word literally means: to command with the sense of having official authority and is the same word used for a judge or governor. The word obey here means to assent (to evidence or authority). There seems to be a pretty strong indication here that those spiritual rulers (whether you want to call them pastors, pharisees or any other term) have a high level of authority over those who they rule. In addition those who are ruled are directed to obey or assent to their authority not just follow their good (or in some cases bad) examples.

you guys are forgetting the second part of verse 3, you know the part where Jesus also says, 'do not do as they do because they do not practice what they preach', I think this sits well with what Vader has stated.

The Potter wrote:The scripture in Hebrews 13 talks about those who rule over you. This word literally means: to command with the sense of having official authority and is the same word used for a judge or governor............ In addition those who are ruled are directed to obey or assent to their authority not just follow their good (or in some cases bad) examples.

......and then consider the outcome of their behaviour.....

These modern day "spirtual dynamo's" some people refer to as 'pastor's' or 'men of God', if they exert their supposed God given authority beyond the Word of God, then they are nothing, and not to be obeyed or even taken seriously.

Good points guys...

I think an understanding of Church leadership is required. Pastors are not only shepherds/servants but Spiritual leaders of a Church. Their governance should be (as Mythy alluded to) based on scripture. We remain as members of a congregation in "submission" to their leadership in the Church. I trust my Pastor to lead the church and serve the Church. However he doesn't and won't micromanage my life and tell me what to do in my life. That is what working out your own salvation with fear and trembling means.

This Hebrews 13 scripture indicates submission to a godly leader in the Church as in a Pastor or Elder etc in the area of Church governance. But this is not teaching that they are my anyone's headship or stand between me and my relationship with God.

The Bible also states that we are to "submit one to another". Does this make everybody in the Church our headship?

To Love or to Lord.... that is the question for some of these men.

Isn't everyone within the body of Christ glued together by Love?

To obey or not obey, surely depends on who your pastor or spiritual leader really is ,suppose it was david koresh of waco texas or jim jones or moon. If your pastor decides he would rather have sex with you than his wife would you be in rebellion to say no? In an ideal world you could rely on your Pastor to rightly divide the word of God ,sadly too many Powerfully anointed men of God these days are only in it for the money and the ego trip Wolves in sheeps clothing are not sheep!