i would like to bring another instance to the table - we have the amazing story of Peter, the obvious leader of the bunch but he had a few shortcomings as we all know but look at Jesus and how He dealt with them in contrast to how some churches deal with the same issue.
Here is Peter, whom Jesus even foretells would come under demonic assault, and he has blown his testimony before God, before the church and before the public and gone back to his old life of fishing (which doesnt sound too unreasonable!)
Jesus comes to them (the same place where He called them into the ministry) and they are out in the boat and we know the story - Peter is feeling that spiritual deflation that comes with sin and doesnt recognize Jesus but John does. Peter leaps in and comes ashore and the rest row in and they all have breakfast together.
Now Jesus could have sorted Peter out in front of all the others but I believe He took Peter for a walk away from the others and personally spoke to him. Three times He asks Peter "Do you love Me".? Notice its not "are you committed",or "do you have a covenant with the church", "do you have a TV?", the covenant God wants with us is one of love, thats all He has ever wanted, the heart and not the outward activities.
The clue I believe here is after the 3rd question, Peter turns and sees nosy John following which means they had gone for a walk. Peter says what about him but doesnt mention any of the others - gentle and wise Jesus redeems Peter without further damage to the church and bestows dignity and grace upon him - not one mention of his sinful denials although Peter would be only too aware of what he had done.
We all know that with one church there has been some 450 "Peters" depart since its beguinnings, how many of them could have become a tower of strength and truth if they had not been driven off by ungracious and intolerant leadership that has no capacity to receive direction and wisdom from anyone but themselves.
I know some have shipwrecked their faith but not that many - Proverbs says there is much wisdom in many counsellors and God deliberately spreads it around so we have to need each other.Let us seek God before we drive off and toss out the "Peters"!

You are the man Rabbi...........

You know what else is soo interesting about this story is that almost immediatley Peter is restored bak to a place of minisrty and usefulness.. There are "some churches" who rob people like Peter 2yrs (of their lives), and put them in a place where their giftings, abilities and experence has to be contained........all because restoration, love and grace have gone out the window...........

Look at what God did immediatley with Peter and how he used him to win souls and establish his church...Maybe Jesus really did know what he was doing when he reached out with "Love, grace and restoration..."

My thoughts anyhow........ mearnsie...!

Ps. Loving the reads Rabbi........when can you come over for dinner and fellowship...........???????

Great post Rabbi,

I glad jesus didn't ask 'why?, Peter', just 'do you love me?'. It's amazing how forgiveness doesn't ask questions!!!!

I am coming too Mearnsie....

Very good points rabbi, as always spoken with wisdom. Where were you in the first installment of the forum?

I will be there as well mearnsie. looks like you got a fellowship full.

I wonder what the last straw is before God gives people over to the devil.

Paul gives Gods direction on this issue of excommunication - his statement is to hand the unrepentant over to satan so his flesh maybe destroyed but his soul saved. Its never to destroy someone but rather to distance ourselves from their sin till they are sick of it. look at the prodigal son, it says hes in the pig pen and he comes to himself, or literally to his senses and realizes where he is and what he has lost.........how does that happen? Well I believe he had a family at home, especially his father who never stopped praying for him so God had access to him and met him in the pig pen in powerful conviction!
God would not that any would perish but He will allow you to get to the edge to gain your attention and restore you to your senses.............sin is a form of insanity and only the humans do it in the natural world!

I love the elephant mythy

Rabbi wrote:Paul gives Gods direction on this issue of excommunication - his statement is to hand the unrepentant over to satan so his flesh maybe destroyed but his soul saved. Its never to destroy someone but rather to distance ourselves from their sin till they are sick of it. look at the prodigal son, it says hes in the pig pen and he comes to himself, or literally to his senses and realizes where he is and what he has lost.........how does that happen? Well I believe he had a family at home, especially his father who never stopped praying for him so God had access to him and met him in the pig pen in powerful conviction!
God would not that any would perish but He will allow you to get to the edge to gain your attention and restore you to your senses.............sin is a form of insanity and only the humans do it in the natural world!

So where would the reprobate fit into this picture?

The reprobate, or better known as the Esau syndrome, are those whose conscience has been so seared (literally branded by the devil) thru sin that they can no longer find the sorrow that leads to repentance but only worldy sorrow such as Esau's, where he sought repentance but could not find it and we have all met them ( a very frightening place to be) God will drive them to the edge but not all can stop themselves going over! Look at Romans 1 and the phrase "and God gave them over to a reprobate spirit"....it literally means that God did not bother them anymore, He did not try to restrain them from their sin!
Our conscience is God given and the Red Indians have an interesting definition - they say it is a triangular wheel that spins around and if we offend it the pointy edges will prick us but if we continue to ignore their warning the edges wear off and although it is spinning it no longer pricks us!
Our God given will, the most powerful natural force on earth, determines whether we become reprobate or not, we all have a capacity for sin but we dont all desire to repent. God is always willing to forgive for His capacity is limitless but we can exhaust our ability to repent and become unfeeling by simply as Romans 1 puts it, by choosing not to retain the knowledge of God, push Him out of sight and out of mind and do whatever we please.........thats how one becomes reprobate.
I need God to convict me for that shows He still loves me and my conscience is still working, I need my brethren around me to reflect my own nature and personality because isolation makes us wierd, and I need the Holy Spirit to teach me how to live right and feeding my spirit with the manna of His word is one of the healthiest things one can do, dont start eating at another table and lose your appetite for Jesus.

Fantastic summary Rabbi, Sometimes I think this free will thing stinks

Thank the good Lord for creating a home for our conscience.

It's both a long way and a short way back for the reprobate.

It's interesting that through man's sin destruction entered the universe, one of the Laws of Thermodynamics states that everything is in a state of decay. God's nature has always been to create, to build and in light of what we are discussing, God's natural disposition in regards to forgiveness is to build up, edify, restore and redeem.

Rabbi wrote:The reprobate, or better known as the Esau syndrome, are those whose conscience has been so seared (literally branded by the devil) thru sin that they can no longer find the sorrow that leads to repentance but only worldy sorrow such as Esau's, where he sought repentance but could not find it and we have all met them ( a very frightening place to be) God will drive them to the edge but not all can stop themselves going over! Look at Romans 1 and the phrase "and God gave them over to a reprobate spirit"....it literally means that God did not bother them anymore, He did not try to restrain them from their sin!
Our conscience is God given and the Red Indians have an interesting definition - they say it is a triangular wheel that spins around and if we offend it the pointy edges will prick us but if we continue to ignore their warning the edges wear off and although it is spinning it no longer pricks us!
Our God given will, the most powerful natural force on earth, determines whether we become reprobate or not, we all have a capacity for sin but we dont all desire to repent. God is always willing to forgive for His capacity is limitless but we can exhaust our ability to repent and become unfeeling by simply as Romans 1 puts it, by choosing not to retain the knowledge of God, push Him out of sight and out of mind and do whatever we please.........thats how one becomes reprobate.
I need God to convict me for that shows He still loves me and my conscience is still working, I need my brethren around me to reflect my own nature and personality because isolation makes us wierd, and I need the Holy Spirit to teach me how to live right and feeding my spirit with the manna of His word is one of the healthiest things one can do, dont start eating at another table and lose your appetite for Jesus.

Ths is really excellent Rabbi, makes me want to research/study it further. I work with medical people who are trying to understand mental health problems in people and why they are this way. One woman said to me of her experience working in the Forensic Unit at Graylands (thats where they put the serial rapists, murderers and paedophiles) and she said some are "bad" and some are just "plain mad". Interesting...

Give me more Rabbi....

In regards to my previous post 2 posts ago....Those who think in the canal, not sinful, but in the natural will naturally have a thought process which is bent towards destroying and destruction and on the other side of the coin will tend toward building a secure 'kingdom' for themselves here on this earth.

Those who think in the spiritual will have a thought process that is bent towards restoration and redemption and on the other side of the coin will be more inclined to let God move freely in their lives.

mearnsie wrote:There are "some churches" who rob people like Peter 2yrs (of their lives), and put them in a place where their giftings, abilities and experence has to be contained........all because restoration, love and grace have gone out the window...........

Mearnsie - what would you do if a situation arose where a senior pastor commited adultery or stole church funds? Would it be a case of getting him to say 'i love Jesus' three times then let him keep preaching and pastoring as if nothing had happened?

Ecca this very thing has happened in the PH. If you are in a position of influence you will be slapped on the wrist and left alone if you are a pleb you get taken to the cleaners with their 'discipline' policy which you then have to prove your loyalty to the Pastor and the 'vision' for a period of 6 months in which you are then pronunced to be fully rehabilitated and can enter into that wide world of ministry.

What would you do Ecca?

Mearnsie no longer posts on this forum but if he did he would probably respond by asking what the Bible says about it???

1 Cor 5:11-13
But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner — not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."
NKJV

Thats a start. There was recently an incident in a large (not PH, but not certiain if it was an AOG or not) church where the pastor was caught in adultery. The church council told him to have a three week holiday and come back, but did not revoke any pastorial leadership. The church completly split and many souls have become disolusioned.
Mearnsie seemed to indicate that he would take the same approach. Sin needs to be judged and where a leader is involved there needs to be a removal from position. I am not ignorant to what paul says elsewhere regarding restoration:
Gal 6:1
Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness

Resoration is definatley needed and i know that time limits can seem legalistic - in reality someone might be ready to resume ministry in one year, others might take three or four. But in a large fellowship some guidelines are needed.
Obviously the prayer is that no one falls, but we are still subject to our fallen nature and will have to deal with issues of sin as they arise.

Very good but also consider Galatians 6:

1Brothers,
if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him
gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
2Carry
each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of
Christ.
3If
anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
4Each
one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself,
without comparing himself to somebody else,
5for
each one should carry his own load.


The problem noted in the PH form of discipline is that it is done in a very judgemental non-gentle way with no room for compassion. The moment a brother sins in certain areas (even for the first time) he is removed from ministry (I agree in some circumstances), given no chance to speak to his Church (if he is a pastor), treated with derision, ejected from fellowship and in some cases even put out of a church and sent to another. Now I am all for discipline of those that fall into error in the above areas, however the Bible talks about restoration in a gentle manner. Take the example of Peter who rejected and renounced Jesus...he wasn't dis-fellowshipped, he was restored by Jesus and in a gentle manner confronting his error (Peter do you love me?) got him to a place of fellowship again.
I think the scripture you are using is referring to a brother who is in constant sin and not in a place of repentance and remorse. This has to be taken into account.
Also the other area is the media rules...the same discipline is applied to someone who has a TV as is applied to someone who commits fornication. Go figure???? Man's rules have been exalted to a point of equality with Biblical standards...

Nice post DV, I agree, everything has to revolve around a persons heart, in whether or not there is contrition shown.

So back to the question - if a pastor commits adultery should he be disciplined by removal of pastoral ministy? You both seem to be dancing around the issue. Yes a persons heart is important, yes restoration involves love and compassion. But are there any absolutes or is everything subjective?

Yes unless God says otherwise.

Re-read my post's, I have already answered it.

Darth Vader wrote:The problem noted in the PH form of discipline is that it is done in a very judgemental non-gentle way with no room for compassion. The moment a brother sins in certain areas (even for the first time) he is removed from ministry (I agree in some circumstances), given no chance to speak to his Church (if he is a pastor), treated with derision, ejected from fellowship and in some cases even put out of a church and sent to another. Now I am all for discipline of those that fall into error in the above areas, however the Bible talks about restoration in a gentle manner. Take the example of Peter who rejected and renounced Jesus...he wasn't dis-fellowshipped, he was restored by Jesus and in a gentle manner confronting his error (Peter do you love me?) got him to a place of fellowship again.
I think the scripture you are using is referring to a brother who is in constant sin and not in a place of repentance and remorse. This has to be taken into account.
Also the other area is the media rules...the same discipline is applied to someone who has a TV as is applied to someone who commits fornication. Go figure???? Man's rules have been exalted to a point of equality with Biblical standards...

Not really, you have just said how you dislike the PH standards (a common theme on this site) without giving your opinion other then you sometimes agree, but didnt answer the direct question.

Hmm thought it was clear, fair enough.

I think a Pastor should be removed from ministry if he commits adultery or steals money (and a few other sins like gluttony, this seems to be overlooked in the PH). Not dis-fellowshipped, not made to feel like he is a leper or cut off unless as the scripture teaches, he is unrepentant.
How is restoration made? With gentleness and love not judgement...help, prayer, fellowship, comeraderie, rebuke, counselling and being involved in the brothers life. All of these things need to be shown.

I don't think a Pastor or anyone in ministry should be removed for the "media standards" in the PH. It is complete rubbish IMO.

And there needs to be clarification...ECC has standards not "rules". There is a difference. Wayman Mitchell himself said to me that ECC is going to have "Bible standards and not fellowship standards". This is an amazing admission that the fellowship standards are more legalistic in spirit than what the Bible teaches. It appears on face value to be higher than the Bible but in fact it leaves very little room for the heart of a christian to live for God in righteousness because a believer wants to, not because he has to or in other words....It breeds a "I am right with God because I tick all the boxes according to the fellowship". This is wrong and can lead to a very pharisaical attitude.