Mythbuster wrote:One of the best ways in dealing with error is not dwelling or proving the error is there but to focus on the truth, the truth will always expose error.

Well said Myth, continually beating PH appears to me to be a bit of a "Hollyier than thou" exercise. In your opinion Dave everything is bad in PH, I happen to know some very nice people there, you are applying a very wide brush. I don't think this forum is the place to vent your personal dislike of PH and after all wants the point, as I have said some good people in there, however, misguided you think they are is it really that helpful venting on them and their church.

pimpmyride wrote:

Mythbuster wrote:One of the best ways in dealing with error is not dwelling or proving the error is there but to focus on the truth, the truth will always expose error.

Well said Myth, continually beating PH appears to me to be a bit of a "Hollyier than thou" exercise. In your opinion Dave everything is bad in PH, I happen to know some very nice people there, you are applying a very wide brush. I don't think this forum is the place to vent your personal dislike of PH and after all wants the point, as I have said some good people in there, however, misguided you think they are is it really that helpful venting on them and their church.

Pimpmyride.....Dave isnt saying the people in the PH are not nice...or not saved..or not anything actually..we all know some really good people in the PH.....he is talking about issues that start at the top...and the way the fellowship is run.....there shouldnt be a problem discussing those issues on this forum if its true . Are you attending a ph church..or have you in the past??

pimpmyride wrote:Well said Myth, continually beating PH appears to me to be a bit of a "Hollyier than thou" exercise. In your opinion Dave everything is bad in PH, I happen to know some very nice people there, you are applying a very wide brush. I don't think this forum is the place to vent your personal dislike of PH and after all wants the point, as I have said some good people in there, however, misguided you think they are is it really that helpful venting on them and their church.

Obviously not every person in the Potters House will have the same level of conviction for each of those issues addressed, but in a general sense, it is what is taught and cultivated. You can't really blame a certain pastor or person for any of it, it's simply part of the culture. So yes, I apply a wide brush for widely-held beliefs. I definitely don't think "everything is bad" in the Potters House - and I certainly agree that the Fellowship is absolutely filled with great people.

The reason these issues are discussed are to help people recognize and avoid destructive beliefs. If you had actually experienced what most of us did, you would want to help people avoid the same mindsets. What's the point of going through something if you can't learn from it and help others who may be in the same boat? You don't have to actually leave the Potters House to, for example, change your attitude toward those who have left, or to obtain a more balanced perspective of pastoral authority.

Simply changing churches won't change personal toxic beliefs that have accumulated. You need to actually address them. I have no doubt that there are people that have left the Potters House that still cling firmly to many of the mindsets we have discussed, simply because they have never addressed them.

DaVe wrote:

pimpmyride wrote:Well said Myth, continually beating PH appears to me to be a bit of a "Hollyier than thou" exercise. In your opinion Dave everything is bad in PH, I happen to know some very nice people there, you are applying a very wide brush. I don't think this forum is the place to vent your personal dislike of PH and after all wants the point, as I have said some good people in there, however, misguided you think they are is it really that helpful venting on them and their church.

Obviously not every person in the Potters House will have the same level of conviction for each of those issues addressed, but in a general sense, it is what is taught and cultivated. You can't really blame a certain pastor or person for any of it, it's simply part of the culture. So yes, I apply a wide brush for widely-held beliefs. I definitely don't think "everything is bad" in the Potters House - and I certainly agree that the Fellowship is absolutely filled with great people.

The reason these issues are discussed are to help people recognize and avoid destructive beliefs. If you had actually experienced what most of us did, you would want to help people avoid the same mindsets. What's the point of going through something if you can't learn from it and help others who may be in the same boat? You don't have to actually leave the Potters House to, for example, change your attitude toward those who have left, or to obtain a more balanced perspective of pastoral authority.

Simply changing churches won't change personal toxic beliefs that have accumulated. You need to actually address them. I have no doubt that there are people that have left the Potters House that still cling firmly to many of the mindsets we have discussed, simply because they have never addressed them.

Young Buck you are showing wisdom beyond your years. How old are you???

In reply to toxic doctrines , yesterday i got into the original sin thread with germ and felt i really let him down by not being able to pin point the exact origin of the non literal fruit ,tree ,serpent etc.I heard this taught somewhere and cant find it in any article of faith even stayed up half the night thinking about how did i know that .Its not mormon or JW although they refer to it on their pages as a belief they deny so sombody must hold it .I learnt all of what little i know in PH but i cant even pin it on our previously mentioned bible study leader who not only tried to teach the righteous lie ,but also his signature doctrine why women have no value in the Kingdom of God.Apparently just there to make it seem normal to young men the real target audience.

@Hoggie you cannot be expected to remember everything. I have trouble remembering what I had for breakfast the other day let alone every good and bad piece of doctrine.

We don't have to remember something for it to have an effect on us.

Absolutely agree with that. which is perhaps one of "the main concerns" i was reading through a stack of those resignation letters that seem to turn up ever more frequently on forums around the world and cant help wondering why all these top men spent so many years promoting a fellowship that had destroyed so many of thier close freinds and are supprised when it does the same to them ,or why the next generation feel it will never happen to them .Somewhere along the way genuine desire to seek and serve god gets relegated to second place.The great Commision gives way to"great commission!and getting people saved to getting peoples savings.!

I agree, we were all somewhat shocked at how corrupt the system was, and yet if we had bothered to open our eyes and scratch the surface we would have seen the organisation for what it was. It's a shame because there are so many good people still involved.

justlookn wrote:

pimpmyride wrote:

Mythbuster wrote:One of the best ways in dealing with error is not dwelling or proving the error is there but to focus on the truth, the truth will always expose error.

Well said Myth, continually beating PH appears to me to be a bit of a "Hollyier than thou" exercise. In your opinion Dave everything is bad in PH, I happen to know some very nice people there, you are applying a very wide brush. I don't think this forum is the place to vent your personal dislike of PH and after all wants the point, as I have said some good people in there, however, misguided you think they are is it really that helpful venting on them and their church.

Pimpmyride.....Dave isnt saying the people in the PH are not nice...or not saved..or not anything actually..we all know some really good people in the PH.....he is talking about issues that start at the top...and the way the fellowship is run.....there shouldnt be a problem discussing those issues on this forum if its true . Are you attending a ph church..or have you in the past??

Hi Justlookn, I'm affraid its not that simple, if Dave is so convicted about the so-called guys at the top then "Name" names, lets have some real tangible facts not a whitch hunt, I've witnessed one of these not so long back? and I'm sure there would be agreement around this forum that its not the way to go. You can't have the cake with out the calaries, you can't rubbish the guys at the top without effecting people in that church, this is harmful and should not be given currency on this forum.

In reply to pimp my ride ,the policy of naming names as you suggest has been used on other forums and can actually stifle any free debate rather than encourage it .We thought long and hard before even looking in on forums of any kind partly out of loyalty to old friends and not wanting to adopt a knee jerk reaction of I hate PH now that we left .We maintain good relations on both sides of the fence and try to avoid blanket condemnations based on status such as in or out of PH .Not being used to on line discussion until OZ saints i also continue to struggle with Avatars and online names, i too felt a degree of cowerdice at the annonimity it affords me but in return word my posts in such a way that it gives as much annonimity to others as possible while still being relevant and honest .I am in search of knowledge to help clarify my own findings and on behalf of good people both in and out .you could try using your real name if you like to test my theory but i wouldnt advise it .

Pimp My Ride, NOT naming names is one of the ways by which we keep tempers under control, and help keep the forum away from that atmosphere of bitterness and spite that prevails elsewhere.
Some of the stuff that Dave talks about obviously is connected to headship -- and if you have come from PH then you will know who they are, and if you havent come from PH then you wont care who they are.
Also, if people who are reading this are still in PH under those
leaders, and having no problems with their headship, they dont need to
hear names, because that might do damage to their relationship to their
pastor.

And for some it, quite honestly it is WHAT happened rather than who did it, that matters. The specifics arent the problem, it is the attitude.

In my (admittedly not vast) experience, the only people who demand to know WHO either have their own bone to pick, or are looking for ways to disprove what has been claimed.

While I agree that some names and situations should be kept silence but I can understand what PMR is coming from.

Names are irrelevant to this thread though...the issues addressed in the first post don't require names attached.

DaVe wrote:Names are irrelevant to this thread though...the issues addressed in the first post don't require names attached.

So PH is fair go.............So long as we hide behind the curtains......TRIFFIC

pimpmyride wrote:So PH is fair go.............So long as we hide behind the curtains......TRIFFIC

Not sure if you've read the first post of this thread in full. Which part requires a name attached for you to verify the information? MP3 links are provided as general proof that these subjects are taught, however they are very common mindsets, not just something taught by one or two pastors. How many times has this been explained already? If I were to create a list of every pastor that's agreed with these issues, it would run into the hundreds. Rather pointless. Again, if you had been in the PH for a lengthy period of time, you would understand this.

Is that video clip a cut from a PH sermon or alter call? Very very close to the bone. Vrey very scary.
onwego

onwego wrote:Is that video clip a cut from a PH sermon or alter call? Very very close to the bone. Vrey very scary.
onwego

You mean the clip on the front page with the girl talking? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpqIUTuWjpY)
That's a girl that spent a few years in the United Pentecostal Church and is no longer a christian, partly due to the beliefs she talks about in the video (how many souls have been lost because these garbage teachings mangle a person's view of God??). It seems the UPC has a lot of similar teachings to PH, plus a few extra ones, like you must be baptized in Jesus' name only (and not the trinity).

Yeah thats the one. It's amazing how some of the videos and book excerts you've posted relate to my experience in the PH. It's been very informative and eye opening.
Cheers onwego

DaVe wrote:

onwego wrote:Is that video clip a cut from a PH sermon or alter call? Very very close to the bone. Vrey very scary.
onwego

You mean the clip on the front page with the girl talking? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpqIUTuWjpY)
That's a girl that spent a few years in the United Pentecostal Church and is no longer a christian, partly due to the beliefs she talks about in the video (how many souls have been lost because these garbage teachings mangle a person's view of God??). It seems the UPC has a lot of similar teachings to PH, plus a few extra ones, like you must be baptized in Jesus' name only (and not the trinity).